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Airplane noise concerns

January 26th, 2010 · 115 Comments

UPDATE:  We got the following response to this post regarding airplane noise from the office of Larry Phillips.  “Thanks for your post today on airplane noise in Magnolia.  I wanted to offer you the following response for Councilmember Phillips’ office:  “King County Councilmember and Magnolia resident Larry Phillips is a tireless advocate for having planes to use a flight path over Elliott Bay as an alternative to Magnolia to fly into King County International Airport (KCIA) to relieve early morning noise Magnolia.  Working with fellow Magnolia neighbors, Larry has advocated for a specific proven technology called the LDA (localizer directional aid) available on all planes or equivalent technology that would enable the use of the bay.  The authority for use of the air space is under the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA).  King County International Airport cannot unilaterally change the flight paths.  Larry has contacted federal elected officials, met with them, and lobbied the FAA directly.  If you would like to see the Elliott Bay approach utilized, please contact your Senators and Congressman and voice your concerns.”

Jim lives on 31st Ave West and he believes that airplane noise over Magnolia is increasing.  He wrote the following letter to King County: I believe the airplane noise is getting worse.  As I have observed, all
flights, from Boeing Field and now Sea-Tac are routed over Discovery Park.  I did an informal count to the number of planes in a week from January 11-18.  I counted over 100 planes and I was working 11 hours per day during that week.  One morning I was awakened by a 3:30am flight, a 4:00am flight and a 4:30am flight.  Is anything being done to change this pattern?  Will the change in weather and winds coming from the north change the landing patterns?  I have noticed that all Boeing Field planes come over or near Discovery Park.  Can’t they be routed over the water like other airports in the East coast of our nation?

We had one community meeting but I don’t know if anything is being done to remedy the situation.  I know that when we first purchased our home in Magnolia last February, there was not this airplane noise at all.  Seems like King County has re-routed all planes over our space.  What are your plans for the future?  I know we are entering our fourth month of airplane noise and if anything, it seems to be getting worse.

Is anyone else noticing an increase in flights over Magnolia recently? Let us know in comments below.  To report noise concerns anytime, you can call the Boeing Field hotline at 206-205-5242 or email noise@nullkingcounty.gov.  It is helpful to give the plane id if possible.  You can also call the SeaTac noise number at 206-433-5393.

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  • kitty kat

    I love the airplane noise, as I like aircraft.

    I live on the centerline for one of the runways at KBFI in Magnolia and I think its exciting the fact I can go out on the roof and look at some really awesome aircraft. From UPS MD-11's to old DC-8s its a nice view into some really cool aircraft.

    The noise doesn't bother me, mainly thats probably because I've lived with aircraft all around since a child. I grew up living miles south of the centerline of 4R at Midway in Chicago. I later lived a few miles back of the centerline for 14R at O'Hare (A cat3 runway, which sure got its use of an aircraft every 90 seconds in bad weather).

    These sounds are the sounds of modern society. These aircraft bring you people you love and the goods you love in and out of the Seattle area. If you don't like it, there are plenty of alternate places to live. The airport have been here for quite a while.

    There was already forum posts explaining how the IAF fixes are in this vicinity and that airline FOM's dictate that a plane must be fully configured and setup for landing by the time they hit their IAF or near by it. There's not much room to have aircraft turn in over the sound to intercept the localizer for SeaTac or Boeing Field – its simply too tight.

    http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1001/00384I13R.PDF

    NOLLA is on magnolia and where aircraft expect to be established to land.

    With SeaTac, the sheer amount of traffic dictates that aircraft will establish anywhere from over downtown to all the way back by green lake. Standard behavior for a controller is to stack and have the first intercept downtown, then having aircraft in trail intercept a bit farther back (http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1001/00582IL16R.PDF).

    This is something you are probably going to have to live with. But if there's another meeting, I'll be there showing my support for the aircraft and not the NIMBYs.

    • BillyBilly

      I'm glad you like aircraft, you've made that point in 3 posts now. I like aircraft too. What I don't like is that the frequency and noise level has increased markedly since we moved here years ago, with most of that increase in the last 4-5 yrs. Which makes your comment “If you don't like it, there are plenty of alternate places to live” quite inconsiderate.

      One of the regular UPS pilots is a neighbor, and explains that yes, the flights absolutely could be routed out over the sound IF the airport (e.g. the county) invested in more advanced navigational equipment. A Magnolia Community Club member explained to me that the county and the council have low-keyed this possibility for years, as they don't want to see a community groundswell forcing them to spend that money.

      • kitty kat

        What kind of navigational equipment?

        How about you drop science instead of this “friend of a friend said this one thing sometime” stuff.

        Any references? Links? Or is this just gossip?

        • BillyBilly

          Specific projects UPS and Alaska are working on with the FAA for (respectively) Boeing Field and SeaTac are described here: http://www.magnolianews.net/main.asp?Search=1&A…. It doesn't include much technical detail, there's a long acronym for the specific nav technology I don't recall.

          The most recent FAA Part 150 Noise Program approval is here (note recco #2): http://www.faa.gov/airports/environmental/airpo… Unfortunately little has been done on this recommendation since its approval in June 2005.

          Noise abatement isn't a new issue for Boeing Field or Magnolia. See http://www.kingcounty.gov/transportation/kcdot/… and the pilot's brochure at http://www.kingcounty.gov/transportation/kcdot/….

          It is not “too tight” to turn over the sound. Prior to a major FAA routing change in 1990, most flights used that route. Today, southward-flow aircraft still use an Elliott Bay ground track frequently as you can see for yourself in the pilots brochure or live with the flight tracker application. But this is primarily in good weather/light traffic/daytime under VFR, absent more advanced technology. I should also clarify that both the airport *and* most current aircraft would require upgrades to utilize it.

          • tina

            thank you billybilly!

  • tina

    I've lived in Magnolia for almost 5 years, and for us the airplane noise started increasing to a point where it was disrupting our lives this past summer, and has steadily gotten worse since then. Before this past summer I knew a lot of planes flew overhead, but they didn't shake the house and rattle the windows like the do now. We're looking for a house outside of Magnolia because we can't take it anymore. We live on 35th near Blaine. My husband went the the airplane noise mtg too, and while it was nice to hear from AlaskaAir, UPS and know the FAA guy was there (he didn't say anything) it doesn't seem like much has been done. I've sent emails to this address: noise@nullkingcounty.gov but they usually just bounce back as undeliverable. And Boeing Field can't do anything besides make note of the complaint. This is all the FAA. The most helpful thing I've found is this: http://www32.webtrak-lochard.com/WebTrak/sea from the Port of Seattle. You can track planes as they fly overhead including elevation. It's supposed to track noise, but from what I can see the noise sensor isn't working in our neighborhood. And then you can report specific planes from that site. The solution seems so simple….just fly over the sound or fly a little higher (not at elevations of 1000-2000 ft). I don't know why the planes fly this low over Magnolia when it seems far from the Boeing Field and SeaTac. Maybe someone in the FAA is angry at someone in Magnolia and is taking it out on the rest of us??? ;-)

    • kitty kat

      Tina,

      Read my below post. Aircraft have to be at a certain altitude when they establish to approach on a runway. If they're 1000 to 2000 feet higher, their FOM's require them to abort the approach. Or, if they're that high, they may not feel comfortable continuing with the approach as they may rush down faster and increase speed, which puts them too fast to land and way above their approach/reference speed.

      Folks, its pretty clear few posters here even know about aviation or air traffic management. But I understand on the Internets/blogosphere, the thing to do is to rant about things of which you don't know.

      Bringing aircraft over the sound really makes for a tight approach which many pilots aren't comfortable with. Think about situations where the weather is not clear – you don't have enough time to line up right over the sound. It's easier to intercept around discovery park and establish there.

      NIMBYs want…
      No planes
      No coyotes
      No killing of coyotes if you indeed catch one
      No homeless
      No robberies (but we refuse to lock our doors or report suspicious activity)

  • Magnolia Joe

    Perhaps the increased noise will scare the coyotes that you're all so scared about out of the neighborhood.

  • Name

    The airplane noise is only getting worse. Something must be done about this.

  • Name

    I get a failed response error when I try to send to this email address. It's not working.

    noise@nullkingcounty.gov

  • Name

    Yes, air traffic to and from Sea-Tac and Boeing Field via Magnolia has definitely gotten worse over the past couple of years. And for those of us who live on the north slope, there are the Kenmore Air flights. During spring, summer and fall there is one noisy seaplane after another after another after another; all day long. And let's not forget the BNSF locomotives. Magnolia has become a very noisy neighborhood indeed.

    • BillyBilly

      That's true… and there's the Coast Guard choppers and barking sea lions. Of course all of that has been around for years… the locomotives since 1890… it's part of Magnolia living. The increased flight frequencies and noise levels are another story. Some of those 4am UPS flights would actually shake the house and wake our young son crying.

      • kitty kat

        How about you better sound-proof your house? Or let me guess, you're one of the Magnolia folks who think its their right to leave your doors unlocked and these undesirables (cause we can't possibly mention the race/color of the break-in suspects) should simply not testing for unlocked doors.

        Wow, as soon as something disrupts the fragile sanctum of Magnolia, people really get wound up. I hope you never have to deal with any real hardships.

  • Magnolia44

    I have been here for 5 years also and there is no doubt that the noise has increased. Its almost to the point where I wonder when it will impact home prices and need to be noted on appraisals.

    Very disappointing.

  • EnduroDriver

    I don't think this is a NIMBY thing, we all know we live near several airports and they are important to any vibrant city. The two main points people are trying to make are 1) the planes seem much lower than usual even when weather is clearly not a factor and 2) the systems put in place to monitor noise conditions are not functional ie the mailbox is always full which means nobody is looking at it and the neighborhood microphones are offline.

    It seems pretty clear that the county knows there is an increasing problem and the simplest solution is to stop collecting so they can say our data does not support our claims. Convenient, isn't it.

    I live out in Lake City, nearly Kenmore and over the past year we have seen a noticeable increase in the number of very low flying commercial jets (mostly cargo) at all hours of the day and night. Again I understand that weather and visibility can dictate the approach but in the middle of a crystal clear day it's just not necessary.

    I'd like someone from the county to explain why they mailbox is rejecting all messages and MNTs are offline.

    • tina

      “I don't think this is a NIMBY thing, we all know we live near several airports and they are important to any vibrant city. The two main points people are trying to make are 1) the planes seem much lower than usual even when weather is clearly not a factor and 2) the systems put in place to monitor noise conditions are not functional ie the mailbox is always full which means nobody is looking at it and the neighborhood microphones are offline.”

      Yes, yes, yes! I agree completely!!!

  • anon

    we live on 40th w by the water tower. i have actually noticed the king county/boeing traffic improve slightly since the community meeting on the issue.

  • the noise stinks

    I have lived in Greenlake and Queen Anne and the airline noise in Magnolia is markedly louder and more frequent. Unfortunately I moved here because I thought it would be more quiet. If I'd known how disturbing the noise would be (can't get a decent night of sleep without a noise machine) I would have stayed in Queen Anne. There are more and better schools, a shorter commute and better restaurants. The noise stinks, but at least you have urban amenities in the trade. If I'd wanted to live near planes, I would have moved to Burien. I could have bought waterfront property for what I paid to live in 'peaceful' Magnolia. The FAA response has been anemic. Clearly, they are just waiting to see if the neighborhood is actually going to get together to fight this.

    • kitty kat

      I used to live in Ballard and I found the noises of Ballard more annoying. Specifically the fire station on 15th and Market going off constantly. Also the bum-fights that would occur at 15th + 57th was pretty rough. Hearing cackling, screaming and arguing at all hours of the day (which the police would RARELY ever come to break up).

      Also, Ballard has folks out at 1-3AM (there is an old thread in MyBallard on it) with leaf blowers cleaning up various parking lots.

      Magnolia is certainly nicer from the perspective of:
      -No emo-hipsters wearing ladies jeans prancing around drunk making a nuisiance.
      -I don't have to deal with drug dealers on multiple street corners.
      -Don't have to deal with avoiding vomit on the sidewalk.
      -Don't have to deal with avoiding sleeping homeless on the sidewalk.
      -Less crime (assaults, break-ins, theft).
      -Less expensive restaurants & establishments.
      -Kinder people (Ballard loaded with californians who moved up and brought their attutide/baggage).
      -Less dogs that are treated as an accessory than a loving member of a family (look at the SUV owners who treat their dog like its a status symbol).

      I'll gladly take airplane noise above all that.

      • Guest

        As a native Californian, I am really tired of the anti-California rhetoric. We all came from somewhere so please drop the annoying stereotype blame-game.

        From reading your whiny post, I'm guessing you are from the East Coast. Can't we all just sing a happy song? Unless the airplane noise drowns it out …

        • kitty kat

          From reading my whiny post? Perhaps if you had taken a few seconds more and read more closely thread, you would have seen it explicitly stated Chicago as my origin.

          Perhaps your Californian-ADHD personality prevented you from being able to read and comprehend the entire thread before hitting reply.

          • Guest

            You can't blame anyone for not reading all of your posts. And congrats on your love of airplane noise.

            I'm actually a lazy ex-Californian — hence not reading all your snooze-fest posts. Oh yeah, my relatives were pioneer settlers in Washington state. I'm sorry, Oregon Territory, so consider that when making nasty comments about people's whereabouts. You've been here how long? Yeah …

    • tina

      “If I'd wanted to live near planes, I would have moved to Burien.”

      Amen!

  • anneMT

    We bought a house near Discovery Park 2 years ago. Flight noise was not an issue at the time. In the last 6-7 months, the noise has become incredibly disruptive. We are woken up before 5 am regularly now. It never happened the first year we lived here.

    If these flights were buzzing the neighborhood for years, I would be one of the first to tell people to deal with it. Sort of like when people move to the country, then complain of the farm smell. But this is different.

    Something has changed in the last year. I would like to know what happened and why. Are these new flights? Rerouted flights? Why aren't the noise meters active? Are there decibel guidelines for flights over populated areas?

  • http://ninaforsyth.org ninaf

    I like the airplanes! I got totally excited when I saw the 787 from the comfort of my living room. We are right over the flight plan and they have never woken me up.

    Ok, I take that back…. there were some fighter jets that did a fly by at Husky Stadium during a football game. I am fine banning Husky's. :)

  • emma

    I have lived in Magnolia for 14 years. I understand that flyovers are a reality here. But it's the 3 and 4 a.m. overflights that wake me up that are distressing.

    Be aware that during the dotcom boom overflights seemed to be so much worse. The culprits then were UPS and FEDEX which have to get the shipments here very early so they can be delivered by the time advertised. As the economy perks up, I expect this will happen again. For an easy look at BFI arrivals and departures (and other airports including SEA) logon to the webpage – http://flightaware.com/live/airport/KBFI. I did this earlier this week after being woken up at 0-dark-30 and found it was ABX (Airborne Express/now DHL?) that was the culprit.

    As far as flights to Boeing Field (BFI/KBFI) are concerned, the marker – NOLLO – is that little building surrounded by barbed wire at the top of the Magnolia Bridge. Pilots use that marker to hone in on the flight path to BFI. The second factor that adversely affects flights to BFI is the fact that the airspace above 2000 ft. is 'owned' by SEATAC (SEA/KSEA). This means that flights to BFI have to stay under that 2000 ft. ceiling so they don't interfere with SEA traffic.

    I am sorry to hear that BFI airport personnel are not assigned to monitor the complaint line/mailbox. I expect that is due to the awful King County financial situation; that is, with all the cutbacks there isn't anybody left to do what essentially are non-essential tasks.

    Now I'll really get some negative feedback when I say we need to have a better tax system here in WA. A system that may just include an income tax. It is beyond me why we think we can NOT pay for government services and yet still expect to have our every need fixed by that same government.

  • Name

    The herons make too much noise as they fly over our house. can KingCounty send someone over to shoot them so my morning sleep is not disturbed?

  • name

    Thanks for posting councilmember Phillips' response. Is there an approach that he feels will be most effective? Should we have the MCC write our elected officials? Or should we do it as individuals?

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  • Kristina

    The airplane noise is HORRIBLE from 4am onward. We live on McGraw near 30th and my poor children are awakened every time a plane comes over. I can deal with the noise during the day but at night and early morning not acceptable. Isn’t there an ordinance saying that they can’t fly over before 530 or 6am?

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