This is horrendous. What can we do?

Robert – Thanks once again for your informed and passionate advocacy on our behalf.

This upsets me … I live right under the path near the water tower. As it is, the noise of the ups planes is unbearable.

Don – Unbearable? Wow. Life must be good for you othewrise. Life in the big city, my man.

I like the planes. I live by the water tower too. We get to see the 787 and the 747-8 before the rest of the world does. Its fun. Maybe Magnolians are sissier than the rest of the city’s residents.

Any lower they might as well land here, what the heck are they thinking????

I like the planes also. I get giddy when I saw the 787.

matt, hope one of the planes hits your house.

Wow. Personal attacks. Nice one Snarkbark. Just sayin that KSEA and KBFI have been there a lot longer than almost everyone in Magnolia. Choose to live here, deal with it. Man, Magnolians really are tender.

I’m worried that it may be too much noise for the homeless in Smith Cove Park. They deserve a more serene setting on the watefront.

As long as they put a clearly marked, green bicycle path alongside the runway they can fly as low as they want

It may be true that KSEA and KBFI have been here longer than most locals, but this ‘sounds’ like a significant change… or is it OK that they get to do just anything because they were ‘first’?

Regardless of whether you like airplanes, noise, or neither: you might be concerned that the FAA is apparently trying to slip this one by the locals. Otherwise, why would they hold the public meetings so far away? I’d think that we’d want to be treated better by the FAA and any other gov’t agency.

Robert/Mag Voice: could we get info as to WHY the FAA is pursuing this change?

Thanks

Am I mistake in thinking this is the kind of business we expect our congressional representatives to address?

Horrible!!!!

Steve C: The FAA has essentially said why. It shows on the FAA’s Class B proposal that they want to grab airspace over Magnolia between 2000 to 3000 feet to vector aircraft to the 3rd runway at SeaTac.

Of course, that is not really needed. Any airline transport or commuter aircraft flying to SeaTac can easily descend to land from a much higher altitude over Magnolia, given the distance we actually are from SeaTac.

Lowering the ILS is really setting the stage for this. You have to get the Boeing Field bound aircraft lower across Magnolia if you want to bring the SeaTac bound aircraft in lower across Magnolia.

RE: Robert (Nov 2 @ 3:02) Yes, this is without a doubt something to express a strong opinion about to the congressional delegation. The MCC will shortly be distributing a fact sheet and contact sheet for such calls. This information will be posted on the MCC website sometime on Thursday and will also be provided to the MagnoliaVoice website, of course.

@Robert 11/3- I’m still confused as to why, ultimately, they want to “bring the seatac bound aircraft in lower across magnolia”? Can they somehow get more flights in/out of Seatac if the FAA allows this?

What about the EPA? Isn’t it their job to keep govt agencies like the FAA from running amok?

nice trolling @matt

Peter: no reason has yet been stated as to why the FAA would want to do this. There certainly isn’t any obvious need. This is a question we will ask the FAA at the November 18th public meeting in Magnolia that the MCC has called – and we will be ready to comment on whatever the FAA’s answer is.

In addition, this airspace grab flies in the face of the next generation of approaches that are being evaluated/designed for SeaTac. These RNP approaches, as proposed, would allow aircraft to over water until they have no choice but to proceed over land (in fact, entirely eliminating SeaTac bound flights passing over Magnolia and North Seattle for appropriately equipment aircraft and qualified pilots.) They would also allow aircraft to approach from much high altitudes with engines idling – a quieter, greener approach.

This airspace grab caught not only the community by surprise but also pilots and aircraft operators.

With respect to the EPA, it is not clear how much the FAA is bound by any EPA considerations. We are investigating that, of course, as changes like this have a huge environmental impact.

Robert: thanks again for the info.

If you don’t mind, a few more questions:

Is the FAA trying to solve a problem with traffic in/around the 3rd runway, or trying to improve capacity, or avert a potential issue, or “other”? What is their ultimate goal?

Thanks for the info and advocacy…

This appears to force the Lake Union seaplanes lower as they fly along the ship canal. Wonderful. These noisy propeller driven planes fly over our house about every five minutes on a weekend day. Now maybe we can reach up and paint the floats as the pass overhead.

We’ll be looking forward to the upcoming meeting and sending our intervention requests to our elected reps. I have fired off emails to all the residents I know in the affected communities and asked them to blast their own e-lists to apprise folks of what is potentially going to happen if the lower limits are approved.
I am deeply suspicious of the motives behind this FAA request.
I wonder if we should threaten to seek to ban flights overnight as other cities do? DCA is an example of a large Metro airport which prohibits overnight ops by passenger and freight services.
I also want to know why we are still not utilizing the Paine Field airport for passenger service. The LA basin has five airports supporting the passenger/aerospace industry. Seattle has two. If Paine(which only has freight and Boeing traffic) had some of the air traffic out of SEA we would be more fairly distributing passengers throughout the region and making air service more convenient for many people.
I realize we will not eliminate all disruptions associated with living in a large Metro area with air space overhead but this proposal is really an over reach, especially in light of the foot dragging about the over the water approaches which have been under review for years.

Steve C: It really isn’t clear what “problem” the FAA is trying to solve with this. Existing aircraft routes over Seattle have worked just fine to date – i.e. keeping SeaTac bound aircraft generally high over north Seattle. The existing ILS approach to Boeing Field is at least tolerable while we wait for the FAA to get around to allowing the existing over water instrument approach to be used instead of the ILS approach.

The only observable change that might give a clue to the FAA’s motivation is that we have seen an increasing number of aircraft coming from the west and south west over Magnolia – essentially “cutting the corner” – and heading for SeaTac. Why it would be necessary to put them at lower altitude really doesn’t make any sense.

It could be as simple as the fact that they were going to modify the airspace, so why not grab as much as possible “just in case it is ever needed”. Unfortunately, the FAA seems to have gone out of its way to date not to discuss this with the impacted communities. It will be interesting to see how the FAA tries to defend lowering the Class B at the November 18th meeting in Magnolia.

As for the ILS change that they have already scheduled to be implemented – and which we are doing our best to stop – there is absolutely no reason to do that other than preparing to grab the space above it for SeaTac bound aircraft.

If implemented, the revised Class B and the revised ILS approach will not only increase noise and pollution dramatically, they will definitely decrease safety considerably. It is hard to understand how the FAA could propose something like this, let alone schedule it for implementation. It breaks the FAA’s #1 goal: safety.

The FAA should really stop this type of nonsense and get on with designing and implementing the over water RNP approaches for SeaTac and fully integrating the existing over water RNP approach for Boeing Field. If they did that, they could actually raise the floor of the Class B over most of the Seattle area.

Steve H: yes, that’s exactly correct. Kenmore’s float planes will have to fly even lower if the airspace grab were to happen. That is part of the safety issue.

Jerry: you are setting a great example for us all. It is very important to make sure everyone knows about this. Shortly a fact sheet complete with contact addresses and phone numbers will be available on the MCC’s website – and will also be made available to the folks that maintain this website. I would certainly encourage people to use that document as they let our elected representatives and various government officials know exactly what they think of this.

Bottom line: if these changes are made to the airspace they will affect negatively the daily lives of everyone in Magnolia and parts of South Ballard and West Queen Anne. Even if it existed, it is hard to imagine any upside to the FAA’s proposal that is worth trading off that impact given how many people would be affected by the increased noise/pollution and the increased potential for what we all wish never happens: two aircraft trying to occupy the same spot in the decreased volume of airspace they would have to navigate through.

Robert – thanks for the detailed reply!

Can I make a suggestion? The fact that this is such a complicated topic may make the upcoming MCC meeting less productive than it could be.

I could easily imagine that at the meeting, a significant amount of time could be spent trying to explain the details of the proposed change and answering detailed questions from the audience, who would be trying to follow along and understand it completely. It’s only natural that folks will want to understand it so as to figure out whether the FAA’s actions are justified.

This might be a fine way to spend the time, but my guess is that the meeting could be over by the time we get to what I think is the heart of the matter, which is: WHY, the EFFECTS, and the PROCESS (in my opinion).

So my suggestion would be to structure the meeting as follows: spend a short amount of time at the start describing the change itself – the HOW – and then spend most of the remaining time talking about WHY (at a high level, what problems are they trying to solve or head off, etc), the positive EFFECTS of the change (improved air safety? less fuel burned? other) and the negative EFFECTS (noise? safely? other?), and the PROCESS by which the decision gets made (who is notified, how public comments are accounted for, who owns the final decision, is there a trial period -with noise monitoring, etc).

And I’d close by asking the FAA to commit to come back again in 3-6-9 months with an update.

So, in summary:
- Short intro as to the HOW
- Majority of time spent on WHY, EFFECTS (+ and -)
- Overview of PROCESS by which decision is made and a feedback loop established
- Discussion about a COMMITMENT to continue the conversation at the local level

I think that in order to pull this off, someone (you?) would have to prep the audience as to this structure, in order to set expectations about how questions will be answered, etc.

I would go so far as to give the FAA a template for their presentation, given our experience in the past around this topic…

I hope this makes sense, and that you don’t mind the unsolicited advice . Maybe it’ll prompt other ideas as to how to have a crowd-based conversation about a topic that could easily get very confusing (speaking from personal experience .

Steve: thanks for the positive ideas there. We’re meeting next week to work the meeting logistics/structure and I will make sure your thoughts are included in that, along with any other constructive ideas people may contribute.

We already have a fact sheet that covers impact and actions. That has already started making it around on email lists and I would expect it to be on various websites by now. It just covers the situation though, not the meeting process/logistics. Based on your suggestion I think we should do something more meeting specific and circulate it to any interested folks well before the meeting to help with the process or this will, as you point out, get unmanageable.

There is one thing though … I’m not sure we can “give” the FAA a template – it has been hard enough to get confirmation that they will attend. Apparently they have confirmed that to others, including reporters who started covering this all today. Personally I don’t care who they tell – just that they show up, take part and act on our input.

I like the idea of inviting the FAA to return and update us as their process moves forward. Hopefully they will agree to do that. Only by working proactively with communities can all this really work in the end. From what I’ve seen in life, the world is far too complex a place for a single agency, no matter how big, to work in isolation.

I just wanted to submit a word of caution that we should not look at the development of RNP approaches into BFI as a panacea. If history is any guide, the existence of an approach will not make it necessary to use. Many airplanes will not be equipped to fly the approach for decades. There will always be loopholes and exceptions made for operators to delay spending money to upgrade their fleets. The most lenient rules will always be applied to frieghters–the very aircraft that disturb our neighborhood the most. The simplest solution would be to make a charted visual approach procedure over Elliot Bay the standard approach when visual meteorological conditions prevail, and to provide for an augmented ILS procedure during other times. The ILS procedure should be augmented so as to change the position of the final approach fix from NOLLA (at the top of the magnolia bridge), to the FAA radar antenna (in Discovery Park). This would force airplanes to be higher and at a lower power setting while they cross our neighborhood. Furthermore, this change would cost nearly nothing to accomplish. Any change that costs too much will be difficult to guarantee compliance on, and will not be effective. Furthermore, a pilot can generally always decline to fly a specific procedure at his discretion. Don’t hang your hat on the RNP approach. Creating the approach is only a fraction of the battle. There are dozens of RNP approaches to airports throughout the country that are almost never flown.

EB1: you are correct re the use of RNP approaches, with an important caveat:

If one looks at the entire General Aviation fleet, many cannot fly RNP approaches. However, those are typically not the aircraft that cause noise and pollution problems for communities. If you look at the air transport category aircraft – Boeing or Airbus for example – then the situation is very different.

I’m told by Boeing representatives that every Boeing commercial aircraft shipped since about 1983 can fly RNP approaches. I’d be shocked if the same were not true for Airbus Industries’ products. Ditto large corporate jets such as the Gulfstream V or Bombardier World Express.

So, getting the RNP approach in use would move most, if not all, of the largest aircraft off the ILS. That’s why we have pushed for that. Use of the RNP can be safely interleaved with other traffic that could only fly an ILS, assuming weather conditions require an instrument approach.

I think your suggestion re the Harbor Visual approach is excellent. In VFR weather, that is exactly what should happen.

The resistance to using the RNP and Harbor Visual approaches appears to be within the ATC organization at the FAA.

Your comment re the Final Approach Fix for the ILS is also excellent. The complication for the FAA would be that the higher altitude would force some revision of the interleaving of Boeing Field bound aircraft with SeaTac bound aircraft for separation reasons. However, that would not be all that hard to accomplish.

That suggestion would be a very good, pragmatic way to provide relief to the community and would give time to implement other approaches and allow the fleet to modernize (a much longer process as you correctly point out).

After all, if you think back a few years, most of the ILS traffic coming across Magnolia actually did start at a higher altitude and descend over Magnolia to NOLLA. This was much quieter since aircraft engines were not running at high power settings (unlike today). It seems that since the FAA implemented simultaneous parallel approaches into SeaTac that aircraft over Magnolia are now directed by ATC to fly in the ILS glide slope intercept course in level flight across Magnolia – greatly increasing noise and pollution levels on the ground.

Getting the changes you suggest, in additional to making the RNP approach available in instrument flight conditions, would seem like a much better way for the FAA to invest its resources.

Robert: I am somewhat dubious about your assertion that most transport category aircraft are RNP capable. If you are in contact with a knowledgeable Boeing representative, I would be interested in some follow-up clarification. I suspect that there is a big difference between an aircraft being “RNP capable”, and an airline actually implementing this capability. Extrapolating what I know about how aircraft options are priced out in other areas, it would seem to me that to purchase RNP capability is most likely an extra charge that an airline may or may not opt for. It is often possible to purchase additional performance for an aircraft that does not result in a physical alteration to the aircraft, but merely a software change that allows the aircraft to perform better. For example: an airline may want to purchase additional thrust on its engines. This additional thrust can be purchased with no physical alteration to the engines. It simply requires a software change that allows for a higher thrust setting. The same goes for increasing max takeoff or landing weights. The airplane isn’t beefed up. The software is altered to accept higher values. I would imagine that this principle holds true in RNP technology. In other words, I suspect that a more precise statement would be for
Boeing to say, “Yeah, all our airplanes are RNP capable, but its gonna cost extra if you want us to turn it on.” Furthermore, the initial cost is not the only expense an airline will undertake when they opt for this technology. It will also need to train its crews on the use of the technology. This can be a significant cost which the bean counters may not buy off on. An airline is not going to voluntarily increase its costs just to reduce noise over Magnolia. It will need to see monetary benefits which outweigh these costs.
I hope that you are right about RNP approaches effectively reducing aircraft noise over Magnolia. I am unfortunately still a little dubious. Here is my reasoning in a nut shell: The biggest noise footprints over Magnolia are from the big cargo jets. Big airplanes fly into big airports. All big airports have ILS approaches. Therefore, there will be no increase in schedule reliability to augment a fleet with RNP. Augmenting a fleet costs money which means the bean counters won’t sign off on it.
I hate to be a nay-sayer. I appreciate the work the neighborhood volunteers are putting in to improve the neighborhood. I just wanted to throw out a word of caution to make sure your efforts are directed in the most effective way.

I find that the BSNF Interbay railyard produces far much louder noise than any of the aircraft flying over Magnolia.

Robert, you say 80% of Boeing pilots want the RNP approach. How about you login to Flightaware and see how many BOE flights are going into KBFI? I got a shocker for you, they’re not the primary type of multi-engine jets that go into BFI. How about you talk to the ACTUAL pilots who go into BFI, not just what Boeing employees are telling you.

Robert, are you even an actual pilot? I’d love to show up at the meeting, but I’ll be out of town that week. Perhaps we can have a pre-meeting meeting this coming week in Magnolia?

I’ll say one thing, I find the KENMORE AIR aircraft far more annoying than the cargo flights that go near Magnolia and Ballard. Maybe we could use some more class Bravo and restraint those pilots a bit more.

EB1: It may be a software cost, or it may already be in the avionics. That probably depends on the airline and avionics manufacturer. Certainly there are airlines today flying who are using RNP approaches regularly at other airports. Alaska Airlines does so in Alaska and is pushing to do so at SeaTac. American does so on the East Coast. Outside the US, RNP approaches have already become established as the default for many airports.

RealProblems: actually I have talked with “real pilots” who fly into Boeing Field and yes, Boeing is not the highest frequency “carrier” flying into Boeing Field. Their test pilots graciously decided to try asking for the RNP approach and reported back their success rate – which was that ATC gave the approach roughly 80% of the time it was asked for by the pilot. I’m told they make a point of asking for it on every return to Boeing Field.

While I can certainly understand how Kenmore’s flights may annoy people, I doubt that “more class Bravo” will “restrain” the Kenmore flights. If that were implemented it would likely just keep them exactly where they are and would more probably move them down a bit in altitude.

Yes, in answer to your question, I am an “actual” pilot. I’m certainly not the only pilot living in Magnolia. Nor am I the only pilot, or non-pilot, who cares about impacts on our community, whether from aircraft overhead, the rail yard, our bridges, the Port or the various issues that surface from time to time that could affect our life in this part of Seattle.

It is too bad that you’ll miss the meeting since you are obviously motivated. I doubt there is time to set up a formal “pre-meeting” given everyone’s schedule commitments, not to mention the logistical issues around booking meeting space for a general pre-meeting.

You can, however, send your comments/suggestions to the email contact address in the materials that have been circulated via email in the community (also available on the Magnolia Community Club website – not sure if this website has posted the materials). Several people have already done that – including folks from our neighboring communities that would also be impacted by these changes to the airspace.

I can’t stand the Kenmore Air guys scud running across Salmon Bay / Ballard Bridge with at what feels full throttle. When its low cigs they go so low everything in my house shakes.

Where can we take our complaints about Kenmore Air?

Just wanted to point out that Robert’s use of the phrase “airspace grab” is misleading and a bit inflammatory. Airspace is part of the public trust. You may own land, but the airspace above it is national property and the FAA can make changes as they see fit. That’s why issues like this go to public meetings, not a public vote.

Regarding Kenmore Air complaints, try calling Kenmore Air. If you honestly feel there is a safety issue, you can contact the FAA at the Seattle FSDO but it’s unlikely that they’re going to do much about a noise complaint against an airline that is operating completely within federal regulations.

Also, Robert – good info on RNP approaches, but they require both aircraft AND aircrew certification, one or both of which may be missing on many US domestic flights.

Also, the majority of operations in and out of Boeing Field that are not Boeing test or delivery flights are freight carriers and corporate, many of which fly older equipment that is not RNP (and possibly not even RNAV) equipped.

Who cares. I live in Magnolia. Airplanes fly over my home all the time. I love the view coming in on those airplane. People are dieing in Haiti, starving in Africa, and we are complaining and putting so much attention on the airplanes. It’s like “Here a problem I can tackle” We all then gather around a the water cooler ” You hate the planes too!?” “Gawd the planes are awful!” Meanwhile you think you’re being productive. Whomp Whomp

Robert,

What type of pilot are you? What are your qualifications?

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