I suppose any comment from me is not valid since I didn’t make it to the meeting, but I find it SO interesting to read they schedule meetings in Everett, Burien, and Auburn for something that will affect Magnolia, Queen Anne, and Ballard!

Where will the petition be posted. I would like to sign!

Tangentially, we should be restricting ALL air traffic in the interest of abating climate change. That would solve the local problem along with a global problem.

Many thanks to Robert for the well organized and informative meeting. Even though answers weren’t given by the FAA they did hear our concerns, and it seems at this point that is all we can ask. If we keep involved maybe we’ll see a favorable resolution to the class B issue as well.

Robert did a great job explaining a very complex situation.

I was disappointed that the FAA couldn’t talk to the “Class B” issue at hand. Sounds like a trip to Everett (31 miles), Burien (15 miles), or Auburn (31) miles, at rush hour, is in my future.

I found this part of the evening’s discussion interesting: I learned that it’s the FAA that runs the controller operation, operates the radar and tracking systems, and designs the flight paths. The representatives from Boeing Field and SeaTac made that clear. So the FAA controls all of activity in the air. Why, then, does it fall to the airports to operate the patchwork of noise sensors and noise complaint process, when they have no power to do anything about noise problems? Seems like the FAA should be in that role, given that it’s their policies and decisions cause the noise in the first place. Currently, it feels like an “open loop” problem, when it should be “closed loop”, with the FAA in the loop, and more able (and accountable) to doing something about it.

Great job Magnolia Community Club and Robert Bismuth in particular. Also, thanks to Larry Phillips who continues to bird dog this issue for Magnolia. What is clear is that everyone needs to comment to the FAA and cc the Congressional delegation now. It will take the persistent efforts of all of us!

Please keep us informed as to where we can sign the petition. I live in Ballard and I am concerned as well.

Does anyone know where to find a map of the actual areas which will be most greatly impacted? I think I could target my neighbors more if I was clear on exactly what South Ballard is.

What a bunch of whiney whine whiners!

The same whiners who complained about the cruise ships.

The same whiners who complained their panties were in a bunch.

Magnolia should be renamed Whinolia.

but if the community in White Center got together to better their environment by challenging a federal agency you’d want to pass out medals. Just because we live in a nice place we ought to cede our right to represent our interests in civic discourse? Feh. Go drink some more Haterade.

To Cindy re whiners: Evidently you don’t live in Magnolia. If you did you would understand our concerns – they are very real. And legitimate.

This link is useful in showing flight patterns and aircraft destinations:

http://www32.webtrak-lochard.com/WebTrak/sea/template/index.html

I live in Magnolia and am concerned about the noise/pollution/danger that this change brings about. Thank you to all who are working so hard to better our community. Cindy, your jealously is pathetic.

This was a good session for general education, and I feel comforted that Robert Bismuth is on top of things.

I think the best thing that can be said about the FAA’s performance is that they showed up, which they didn’t have to. I understand they can’t comment on the hot issue until the December public meetings, but there were numerous other questions that David Suomi seemed to evade. He was asked why there to be was no public meeting anywhere in Seattle, when the process to make this change began, why all planes can’t fly over the water regardless of altitide profile, and what was happening with the early morning UPS flights – and gave long non-answers to them all. It didn’t seem very open and transparent.

Let’s hope there is more information at the public meetings next month.

“I live in Magnolia and am concerned about the noise/pollution/danger that this change brings about. Thank you to all who are working so hard to better our community. Cindy, your jealously is pathetic.”

My Jealously? LOL.

Trust me I’d rather live in Afghanistan than in Magnolia. As would most of Seattle.

Whine all you want… the rest of us are enjoying the show. You’re all about to find out how powerless you are.

WHINERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I can’t believe the broad brush w/ which dolts from all quarter paint Magnolia. You think the people who live here are effectly different than people in Sunset Hill or Phinney Ridge or Greenlake? Totally ridiculous. What sad little part of your sub-kindergarten binary understanding of the world does this serve? Have fun inventing bad guys so you can pretend that you are a victim. Yeah, that must be why your life sucks …

“To Cindy re whiners: Evidently you don’t live in Magnolia. If you did you would understand our concerns – they are very real. And legitimate.”

Which “concerns” are those? There are so many, the rest of us in Seattle are starting to lose track of which of the Magnolia whines are the important ones.

“Trust me I’d rather live in Afghanistan than in Magnolia. As would most of Seattle.”

Cindy, that is beyond offensive and ignorant. I’d love to see you and any of the other Seattlites you dragged into that statement spend one day in combat in Afghanistan, and then tell us whether you’d rather be there or home with your family.

Care to share where you really live, and why you feel the need to troll the blog of a neighborhood that’s not yours?

Basically everyone wins if Magnolia succeeds in ths this battle as the FAA will learn that it cannot act by fiat, but must consider the impacted communities’ concerns re safety and pollution (both chemical and noise). So, if the FAA should propose similar changes that impact your neighborhood, Cindy, perhaps you should be thankful for Magnolia’s efforts instead of being hateful for no apparent reason.

At least the Afghani’s have a good reason to worry about planes overhead. They drop bombs.

Magnolia residents, not so much. Get over your sorry selves. Go do something good for the less fortunate instead of wasting all this energy over a little airplane noise. It’s unbecoming.

I’m beginning to be amused by the likes of Cindy and Skylar. I have to believe that these messages are a jokes because they cannot be serious. Well, at least I’m finding them seriously funny. Keep amusing yourselves and us, while we work on making our neighborhood even better than it already is.

Work hard then. I heard property values in Magnolia are starting to sink… the funny thing is meetings like this just draw more attention to an issue you will not solve. Keep at it! They’re having a pretty good laugh over at the FAA.

I’ll post a review of topics from last night’s public meeting after this migraine abates. The bottom line is that public comments and noise complaints on file are the most compelling actions open to us at this time. That includes contacting Congressional delegates, especially Patty Murray. To file an online noise complaint with Boeing Field, use this link:
http://www.kingcounty.gov/transportation/kcdot/Airport/NoiseManagement/ReportNoise.aspx

I plan to file a fresh complaint every single time I notice the overflight noise, just to make a point and to document the incidence rate. I hope responsible neighbors will do the same.

Dear Gladys > Thanks for the recap in Magnolia Voice Blog.

The seriously funny part is the “safety” concern.

Oh yes, because there are SO many airplanes colliding in mid-air these days!

Come on NIMBYs, you can do better than that!! Maybe blame black people?

Ok,….looks like things are getting heated once again. Sounds like the FAA has something to say but can’t.
Just another failure by the Government to act on the behalf of it’s citizens. To me as of late the planes ie,…UPS etc. have been flying lower and more freguently over Magnolia. I love Planes, but at 11 pm they sure can be LOUD!!

Yes AR, what exactly is the “danger” of the new flight patterns?

Please explain – I could use a good laugh!

db, maybe the government is thinking about ALL it’s citizens? Not just the hypersensitive ones in Magnolia?

Somebody call the Tea Party! LOLZ.

“The FAA did not schedule a public meeting in the areas that would be affected by the change.”

I see the FAA has learned basic bureacracy well: Never schedule meetings with the public in places where ther’s a chance that the affected public might show up and make your pre-made decisions harder to justify. Plan wisely and you can honestly say there was no public dissent.

TSA is still the class-leader in this but this is a strong showing by another agency.

I guess Cindy and Skylar can’t afford to live in the part of Magnolia they’d like to. How unfortunate for them. Hey, kids, there are cheaper places near the tracks. And you’ll even have the trains to listen to at night? What more could you ask for?

Anyway, it’s laughable that the FAA came here and refused to talk about what everyone wanted them to talk about.

So, now they want more planes flying lower? They come in pretty darned low to begin with. And geez, the Sound is only a mile away from the current flight path. Why can’t the planes fly in over the water? No one has ever given a satisfactory answer to that question.

Pollution from those things is a huge issue, as anyone with a deck knows quite well.

hey there noble class warrior! Boy you are sure telling people who live in Magnolia how it is. You got us pegged — super rich right wing racists. We are exactly different than the rest of the middle-class in Seattle who would gladly invite jets to land on their parking strips as a long as doing so properly displayed their class guilt and hipness.

oh sorry Steve Balmer is at the door, and hey that’s Hitler with him. Oh a cribbage board! Gotta go.

Please don’t feed the beasties. The more attention given to off-topic pests, the more their behavior is encouraged. If nobody takes the bait here, they’ll likely move on to different blog/pond where they can get the attention and empty calories they crave.

I am glad they are having one of these meetings in Burien. It can show you how nice a community can be even though we are poor and have been pooped on by the FAA for years.

Or maybe we should start a separate blog for class warriors where we can all appreciate the non-stop witticisms!

I agree living in Magnolia is a privilege. And, last time I checked, my husband and I were paying a LOT in taxes. There is no reason airplanes need to fly so low. When property values in Magnolia suffer the entire city suffers. If our property values remain where they are, the rest of the city has a chance to prosper as well. I do agree the planes should descend over lower income areas because those people won’t be as bothered and don’t pay as much in taxes. Thank you Robert Bismuth for all of your work on behalf of honest and responsible residents. The people who don’t like Magnolia are simply jealous and I certainly do not feel sorry for them. I worked too hard for too long to have planes flying over my house, thank you.

Let’s put this into perspective, from a former three year board member of Magnolia Community Club – what is consistently missed is that the MCC is the handmaiden of the City, and loath to really do anything other than present an alleged high profile to the public, but in the background makes all sorts of treaties with the City, the Port (and its friend the FAA).

The airplane thing has been on the MCC agenda for the better part of a decade now, and at many junctures the MCC could have put some teeth into its complaining, but instead has done what it does best now, put on a big meeting, make all the proper noises, but mark my words, the whole situation will go by the wayside, with the MCC claiming it has served Magnolia well, one more time – just like it did with the Magnolia Bridge (seen any plan for that to be replaced lately or ever?), just like it did with the tunnel (any chance that Magnolia’s access to the south can be preserved? No.), just like it did with the condos next to Bartells, just like it did with the hub urban village at Interbay, just like it did with the developments in the Village, just like it did with Briarcliff, just like it did with the recent expansion at West Point, just like it did with the recent renovation of the FAA’s beacon – all with a resounding – NOT!

And on that later note, Robert pooh-poohs that, saying it makes absolutely no difference that the FAA upgraded its beacon installation, however, for the better part of 8 or more years, the beacon was supposed to be moved so that the air traffic would be moved away from Magnolia. Now that will never happen, and it’s a direct consequence of the fact that the MCC is nothing more than a local showboat organization, made up of board members that one, keep important information given to them by the City and the Port from both its membership and the public at large, only revealing it when they can no longer conceal it, and the fact that the MCC is a sham neighborhood organization – it cozies up with the City every chance it gets. This is what happened at Fort Lawton, at Discovery Park when those issues hung in the balance these last few years. Its boardmembers preferred instead to sit on boards convened by the State, the City and Port, and claim to all three that it was representing Magnolian’s interests, gave each approval for the projects they were undertaking on behalf of Magnolians, and even for the tunnel (it is deeply involved with the tunnel as we speak).

As for Larry Phillips, nice guy, but it is all well and good the big profile about this aviation thing, but in the end, Larry ended up along with two of our state representatives selling Magnolia down the river over the tunnel.

The MCC lives for a big meeting like this FAA thing, that’s its culture, if you look over its history for the last few years, that’s the sum total of its accomplishments – putting on meetings.

Personally, Magnolians would do well to look behind the curtains of these self interested MCC dramas and ask some hard questions – where has all the membership money gone to? Is Magnolia better as a whole meeting the challenges that are coming with the myriad of projects going on around it and in it, are Magnolians’ plans reflected in any of these things?

The honest answer is no, and the root cause is the MCC’s lack of legitimacy at this point.

Way to go Magnolia Community Club! But for the meeting, I never would have known about the issue (other than hearing the airplanes every day). The meeting last night was democracy in action. The people (us) were questioning the government (Boeing Field, Seatac, FAA). While we didn’t get many answers (they’ll be hearing from us), we presented the issues and will continue to force the government to act responsibly and improve its ways. Mr. Bismuth mentioned that planes landing at BF or ST can approach from a higher altitude and glide-land rather than thrusting the engines to maintain altitude. Win-win for everybody. Airplanes use less fuel and save money, better for environment, and people from Everett to Tacoma along the flight paths are less impacted.

Thanks Magnolia Community Club for raising the issues. I don’t always agree with your positions but I appreciate the forum you have created for all of us to meaningfully particpate in the political process. How else could we, as regular citizens, have had easy and neighborhood personal contact with Councilmember Phillips, BF, ST, FAA and other officials. From traffic to the port to airplane noise, you have our backs covered in Magnolia.

I’m not sure why Elizabeth Campbell is sour but maybe she didn’t attend the meeting. (I understand Elizabeth was a fringe mayoral candidate last year receiving 2.47% of vote — i.e. 97.53% of Seattle voted against her opinion) .

Dang, I see the myballard crowd is coming over for a visit.

But anyway, if everyone is so concerned over ‘safety’ they really should look at the trains. I sit next to them all day at work and the stuff that is contained in them is pretty scary. If you were truly concerned about ‘safety’ then I would look at something else to hate.

hey it looks like the trolls are pretty drunk this Friday night. Return to sanity in the morning I’m sure …

Civicsman nice sentiment but do you really thing that was Elizabeth Campbell posting?

Okay follow along: I’m Elizabeth Campbell. I’m going to say some crazy s— like the MCC is a Martian conspiracy.

No wait, I’m just a random person pretending to be someone else. You see? Anyone can say anything on the internet and ascribe it to anyone.

Is there any hope that the sane people out there can get some control of this message board?

Think this is bad? Check out the comments on the MB front page.

Welcome to the neighborhood, myballard and other visitors. This is the place where the vocal, entitled minority finds something new to complain about every other week.

Here are some highlights in case you’re curious what else you’ve missed:
-BAT lanes on 15th should be for cars/SUV’s, not buses and bikes
-ditto on Nickerson (wealthy old white people apparently don’t ride buses or bikes, lol)
-Low-income housing at Disco Park threatens the neighborhood as well as all of our children
-ditto with Tent City under the bridge
-Farmers at the Saturday market don’t belong here b/c they don’t sell at Albertsons prices
-The cruise ships operate too loudly (ironic that the people most likely to take cruises would be complaining about them)

Believe it or not, there are “normal” Magnolians. We mostly just sit back and laugh at these cry-babies.

I came to this blog because I thought I had something constructive to say about this issue. After reading the above posts, I have become discouraged and disappointed to say the least. This is clearly not the venue for civilized and constructive debate. Does anyone know of another web-site that discusses this issue seriously?

I am writing regarding the meeting on Thursday re: the airplane noise. I was not able to attend. I heard that the reason why the FAA wants to lower the flights is so that they can vertically “stagger” flights coming in and enable more flights to land on the runways. That this vertical stagger keeps them separate.

My question is whether anyone has looked at the EIS prepared for the 3rd runway to see if they identified this as a potential impact in the document? If not, this might be a potential legal issue. That is, if they knew that they would have to use this approach to separating planes and did not disclose the need to lower some of the flights…..there could be a legal issue. I’m not a legal expert but it does appear to be a potential area worth investigating if it hasn’t been already.

Sheila, will you consider serving as a Trustee of the MCC? Your insights are extraordinarily brilliant.

The comment section needs a moderator. Desperately.

The Magnolia Community Club needs a new violin. Desperately.

It is not a matter of being “sour”, it is a fact, chapter and verse, with many other issues not being listed that the MCC did nothing about besides giving its great impression of doing something when in fact all it ever does is put on a meeting and pay lipservice to the public while making deals with the City and the Port, and the State, that are contrary to Magnolians’ quality of life, interests, and values.

Again, where does the membership money go to, why is the membership and the public the last to know when the MCC boardmembers are the first to know, often months before they disclose an issue to others, and, what concrete positive action has the MCC produced in any of the following issues:

Ursula Judkins Viewpoint Park
Thorndyke Condominiums and Planting Strips
Magnolia Bridge
22nd Ave West Transit Lane
Briarcliff Housing
Interbay Hub Urban Village
Capehart Housing
Discovery Park Plans and Managment
Fort Lawton Army Reserve Development
Fishermans Terminal Development by Port of Seattle
Condo Development in Village (three projects)
Village Pub Noise
Alaskan Way Viaduct Replacement
Bus Lanes on 15th Avenue W.
Nickerson Street Rechannelization
Cruise Terminal Development and Traffic
Smith Cove Park
North Bay Development
McMansion Developments on Magnolia
West Point Expansion
Magnolia Neighborhood Plan

Every single one of them – no MCC action produced – City or Port went ahead with its plans (except for example Fort Lawton, which the Magnolia Neighborhood Planning Council saved, over the objections of the MCC).

At most, a letter or two declaring that MCC represents Magnolians, the rest, not even that.

So tell everyone again how great the MCC is.

If anyone has questions about the history and activities of the Magnolia Community Club, Magnolia’s Community Council, please visit the website at magnoliacommunityclub.org. The MCC, a volunteer organization, has been active this past year in a wide-variety of issues, including transportation, airplane safety and noise, and the Port of Seattle, as well as promoting community and safety issues, such as sponsoring meetings focused on Emergency Preparedness, CPR and choking training, and a crime update. If you have ideas or issues for the MCC to consider or want to get involved, please come to a monthly Board meeting, a general meeting or contact the MCC via the website.

As for the MCC’s recent general meeting focused on airspace and safety issues, the MCC appreciates the large turnout and widespread community interest in what the Board considers to be a critical issue impacting the quality of life for many Magnolians. We appreciate the feedback we have received and hope to work out the bugs with the sound system for the next meeting. Please see the website for the information that was presented at the meeting. The important take away from the meeting is that the community needs to comment in writing and triplicate to the FAA . While the FAA will accept written input up to 1/31/2010, it is recommended to do so as soon as possible to make sure your input is received before the deadline. It will take the persistent voice of many, not just the MCC standing alone, to make a difference on this issue and improving the quality of the airspace over Magnolia in general.

Please note that the MCC has moved from a paper presence to an online presence and sends out regular announcements via email, Facebook and Twitter about MCC and community events, as well as public/government announcements. Donations/dues (currently $10 per email address) cover hosting the website and paying for the listserve, venue fees, advertising for meetings and small donations that support the community, such as SummerFest. The MCC’s books are open to public and can be viewed upon request at a mutually convenient time. Again, please contact the MCC via the website if you have questions, ideas or feedback.

Finally, the MCC’s 12/09/10 General Meeting will focus on the City’s new tree regulations. Please join us for a presentation by the City and bring your questions.

Diana Dearmin
Magnolia Community Club President, 2010

I live in the Central District near the International District. For the past two years we have been under the southbound flight path into Seatac. Actually the planes are fanned out to the west as well. We also get a lot of low-flying helicopters due to Harborview and seaplanes. The noise can be truly formidable. Often the planes are very low too, illegally low, I suspect. I went to this meeting and I remember thinking that you are lucky to have a King County Council person – Larry Phillips – on your side and that you have already had some success re Boeing field. I live in a socioeconomically (relatively) poor area although the racial and social demographics have changed considerably over the recent years. No one speaks on our behalf. I think they just dump on us because they know no one will or can complain. At least you have some clout. Good luck to you. I didn’t trust that FAA guy. I went to a meeting in Des Moines just recently and it was ridiculous. They deployed temporary noise monitors in a few select communities. One of them was placed next to a hot tub. it happened to be raining while the monitor was deployed so it picked up this noise and registered the rain drops as louder than the air planes. Other results of these temporary monitors also registered “community noise” as louder than the airplane noise. It is so ridiculous you just want to laugh if you haven’t already cried. We all need to fight together. This is a county-wide problem. The toxic fallout has to be very bad for all of us in the end.

The Suomi duo have been involved in ‘Cram Down’ policy in the past under the guise and claim that there are plenty of opportunity for public comment. Keep your eyes on him and them as anytime they make the statement, plenty of time for public comment, the “Cram Down” is most likely already in motion.

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There’s still time to object. Send comments in triplicate by January 31 to Mr. Clark Desing, Federal Aviation Administration, 1601 Lind Avenue SW, Renton, WA 98057. To send a copy to our congressional delegation, use:

Senator Maria Cantwell, 915 Second Avenue, Suite 3206, Seattle, WA 98174
Senator Patty Murray, 915 Second Avenue, Suite 2988, Seattle WA 98174
Representative Jim McDermott, 1809 7th Avenue, Suite 1212, Seattle, WA 98101-1399

Robert Bismuth’s letter to the FAA (http://tinyurl.com/4c2f6dc) supplies ample background material.

There’s still time to object. Send comments in triplicate by January 31 to Mr. Clark Desing, Federal Aviation Administration, 1601 Lind Avenue SW, Renton, WA 98057. To send a copy to our congressional delegation, use:

Senator Maria Cantwell, 915 Second Avenue, Suite 3206, Seattle, WA 98174
Senator Patty Murray, 915 Second Avenue, Suite 2988, Seattle WA 98174
Representative Jim McDermott, 1809 7th Avenue, Suite 1212, Seattle, WA 98101-1399

Robert Bismuth’s letter to the FAA (http://tinyurl.com/4c2f6dc) supplies ample background material.

There’s still time to object. Send comments in triplicate by January 31 to Mr. Clark Desing, Federal Aviation Administration, 1601 Lind Avenue SW, Renton, WA 98057. To send a copy to our congressional delegation, use:

Senator Maria Cantwell, 915 Second Avenue, Suite 3206, Seattle, WA 98174
Senator Patty Murray, 915 Second Avenue, Suite 2988, Seattle WA 98174
Representative Jim McDermott, 1809 7th Avenue, Suite 1212, Seattle, WA 98101-1399

Robert Bismuth’s letter to the FAA (http://tinyurl.com/4c2f6dc) supplies ample background material.

Well put Catherine - were also not as bothered by narrow minded idiots.