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Two teens injured in late night Discovery Park shooting

July 20th, 2012 · 73 Comments

After an apparent altercation with with three teen-aged males, a 16-year-old male was shot in the arm at Discovery Park last night.  SPD Detective Jeff Kappel writes:

At approximately 10:47 p.m. officers responded to reports of shots fired near the visitor’s center in Discovery Park.  About a half hour later officers received a report that a male with a gunshot wound arrived at a North Seattle hospital.  Officers responded to that location to investigate further.  Officers interviewed the victim, who was less than cooperative.  The only suspect descriptions provided to officers at this point are that all three males are teenagers, and include a black male, an Asian male, and an unknown race male. Investigation indicates that the primary suspect (shooter) and the victim were known to each other. Gang Unit detectives responded and are handling the follow up on this active and on-going investigation. The victim was transported to … (the) hospital by friends, where he is being treated for his non-life-threatening injuries.

A few hours later, a second victim from the shooting, a 17-year-old female, arrived at a North Seattle hospital with a gunshot wound to her leg. Kappel writes:

Preliminary investigation indicates that the girl had left Discovery Park after the shooting incident and went home.  She apparently didn’t know she had been shot but had a bleeding wound on her leg.  Her mother transported her to the hospital for evaluation and treatment where it was determined that she had sustained a non-life-threatening gunshot wound to the leg.

 

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  • Some Guy

    I live by the park and you can hear a lot of cars blaring loud music going into the park at night.  I assume it’s teenagers going there to party.  It seems like either they need to close the parking lots at a certain time, or SPD needs to do a better job of patrolling the lots so teens can’t use the park as a place to party.

    • billybibbet

      Park is closed at 11pm.  Call it in to the non emergency number if you see something suspicious.  206.625. 5011

      This is one very good reason to have the Navy personnel living in the park, as they can be the “eyes and ears” to reporting vandalism, fires, and other problems in the park.  I miss that the SPD mounted patrol is no longer there too…having the police coming and going from their stables was also helpful.

      • guestMagnoliamom

        Is this number for the park ONLY or if you see anything suspicious in the neighborhood anywhere Billy? I just heard some rumors from another parent of teen boys sneaking out after hours to check for unlocked cars and garages while sneaking alchohol to go drinking. They are upcoming 10th and 11th graders “recruiting” 8th graders going to Ballard HS in the fall. I say recruiting since it seems to me that even though the 8th graders are making bad decisions to hang out with these upperclassman they are threatening against snitching i have heard.
         
        If we call this number and they hear from more people with complaints maybe since this incident they will come more quickly or take it more serious. I myself am a single mom in a ground floor apartment with a 14 year old boy. At this point I am focusing on prevention as I know I was 3 times worse in the 8th grade and he will never know. I am monitoring text, FB, friends, talking to parents, trying to make sure there are no kids allowed in my place while I am at work or not there, as well as talking to parents making sure there is an adult there where ever he is going. I know I seem like the crazy mom in the neighborhood having them call me at this age to check- I don’t care. I have heard or read on text/FB about our Magnolia kids smoking weed and getting drunk. While I haven’t caught my kid with anything yet these are some of his close friends and i don’t want him thinking it’s nothing serious like some of the movies recently with drug use like it’s a common occurance. Especially in Seattle where they can see it on a daily basis on 3rd ave, in Ballard, or maybe their parents smoke it.
         
        My point is everyone needs to wake up and realize that this could be your kid. There are 8th graders in Magnolia smoking weed and possibly selling it, breaking into cars and unlocked garages, stealing from Albertson/Thriftway/Bartells, drinking from your alchol collection, and maybe other things we are not aware of! Wake up people and watch your child! Check up on them and take an interest in what they are involved in. Follow though and call the non-emergency number if you see or hear something suspicous even if you don’t have kids.. we don’t want anyone hurt or killed on our watch so we need to be vigilant in being aware.  I already told my kid i will call the cops if I find him or his friends gone from my home in the middle of the night- then everyone will be caught and found out! His eyes got really big like he didn’t know i would actually ever do that, but you know what.. being a single mom I need all the help I can get. Looking into window alarms, nanny cams, and gps tracking now.. ha ha!
         
        I hope those kids are okay, but they need to realize anything can go wrong when you are out that late.  
         
         
         

        • billybibbet

          Then number I posted is the Seattle Police Dept non emergency number….TMI

        • Hustler

          We also break into houses and hit licks on cars and anything we can thats what ballard kids do to make money and hustle, thats why we go to Ballard Hs. 

    • Guest

      We had a scout event at the park and there were broken beer bottles everywhere.  Dangerous and disgusting.  That park definitely needs more patrols because there are too many places to get into mischief.

    • dizz

      I also live by the park and was just falling asleep when I heard the shots.  There were probably 15-20 shots, a lot, at 10:40 pm.  Cops showed up about 5-10 minutes later and dispersed everyone— sounded like they were using loudspeakers to threaten people with jail and then a stream of cars left the park.

      If they were responding to a gunshot call I don’t know why they didn’t take more people into custody for questioning – I would think at least one of the 16 yos would rather tell the cops the names of the idiots with guns than have their parents called near midnight on a thursday.

      there is party noise in the park probably weekly. maybe magnolia should organize a watch since there aren’t enough police?

      • Ericsmith

        Brings up an interesting question.  If there is a park watch how will citizens be able to stop the noise/partying?  The police will not come if you call…even security companies have told me police response is getting slower because they consider these low priority calls.  If someone on the watch has a weapon…its not going to go well.  Without a deterrent or meaningful way to make them scatter, the kids will laugh at the watch.  Plus its a big park. Would Magnolia self-funding of a professional security service be worth doing if park security is really a concern down the line? If THEY call the police they are taken more seriously, or at least this is what I’ve been told.  If people are willing to fund a dog park (a good goal, don’t get me wrong), will they fund a park watch?  And to Mr. Bibbet:  Are the Navy personnel currently living there or was this phased out?

        • billybibbet

          Navy personnel continue to live in the officer and non commissioned officer housing.  At some point the current company that owns the property (leased back to the Navy) will sell the property to private owners.  That company is waiting for the market to improve before selling…might as well, as long as the Navy is willing to continue to lease the homes.

          • Ericsmith

            Thank you.  So when those properties are no longer Navy and the “eyes and ears” of the military presence there is gone…what do you suggest as the most prudent solution to patrolling the park if the police aren’t able to do it?

      • Cookoo

        “If they were responding to a gunshot call I don’t know why they didn’t take more people into custody for questioning ”

        Because of the out cry of Seattle’s so-called ‘civil rights’ morons.

  • Guest

    Call it in when you see it. SPD will come by.

  • billybibbet

    BTW, I have noticed a number of signs in the park with bullet holes in them recently…

  • Silver in Ballard

    I heard this on the scanner last night. The 16 year old male showed up at the Ballard Swedish Hospital’s Emergency Room. He was transported to Harborview by Seattle Fire department personnel.

  • cletus

    ah the mean streets of Magnolia….

    at least these kids street cred will be sky high – “duuude, i was one the people shot. yeah, that’s me…”

    great kids, all of ‘em, i’m sure. just ask their parents….

  • Jilly

    This could have been much worse but where are these kids getting the guns? Home? Am I the only one a little disturbed by this? I’m in the park often, I do not like this…

  • Ericsmith

    No one wants to/can take on the gun lobby, so no gun control.  Yes the guns probably come from home and the parent guy owners will fight you over their imagined right to possess them.  We also voted down taxes for more police, more social programs.  And yes, the uneducated kids hanging out there are proud to dis education and the “nerds” who later go on to be their employers, if they even have jobs above flipping burgers.  So yes, the kids will wind up killing each other in the park.  You can’t have it all. And you shouldn’t expect to have a happy safe walk in the park because the social results of social irresponsibility will show up somewhere…and they just have here, as they have again in Colorado.

    • billybibbet

      I must respond to this Ericsmith, since you want an intelligent interchange of conversation.  Let me be very clear:  gun rights are not “imagined” by parents….it is in our US constitution, and has been upheld by our supreme court.  It is also, even more clearly stated in our WA State Constitution as an INDIVIDUAL right for self defense (no mention of “militias” or “collective” rights): 
       
      “Article I – Section 24 – Right to Bear
      Arms

      The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in
      defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this
      section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to
      organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men. ”

      It is just as important as all of our other constitutional rights.

      • Ericsmith

        Hi Billy, sorry to take so long to respond but was having fun with some of the hair-raising stuff on the posts above.  My work will call me away from this fun summer diversion shortly.

        We respectfully disagree with each other.  I say that it doesn’t matter if God in the heavens gave you the right to carry and own guns…so be it…but accept that there is an epidemic of their getting into the wrong hands and then admit this and be proactive to work very hard at stopping the hemorrhaging of properly owned guns flowing illegally into the hands of people who aren’t qualified to own or use them.

        Lets both move on to other issues and other people.  I think we have addressed each other respectfully and there isn’t much more to discuss for us, but I am still impressed you are a poster who can keep his cool and make a point and would hope you might draw the same conclusions about me

  • concerned mother

    Teens in that park almost every night drinking.  A lot.  Not surprised that this is starting to happen especially with young male rivalries these days and posturing teens.  Wish the police could start busting the activity up.  And yes, some of these kids are good kids heading off to college soon–not a lot of safe, inexpensive places for them to hang at that age.  Punishment should be days/weeks of supervised cleanup.  And I’ll totally talk about guns–yes, it is totally out of control!!!  Right, Colorado, Detroit, NY, Seattle?

    • billybibbet

      Teens drinking everynight?  Where are the parents responsibility in this?  Why is the police supposed to be ‘busting the activity up”?

      I have a safe, inexpensive place to hangout…HOME.  :)

      • Ericsmith

        Of course your logic is sound, but there are many families where both people have to work.  There are single mothers.  Responsible parents who are at home can’t even control teenagers all the time, never mind families trying in extenuating circumstances.  Teenagers have behaved liked idiots since the dawn of hormones.  Most everyone is trying their best to raise their family…read the posting here by the working woman trying to keep her 14 year old straight and not influenced by the older kids who will lead him to bad behavior.  Good parenting keeps kids at home some of the time, but great parenting gives kids the skills to say no when the intoxicating attraction of “cool” older kids beckons.  It is never easy.  I agree, just like you, in reviling the parents who don’t parent and create the drunks, the drug dealers by their laziness or inattention.  But I know what it is like for single parents to struggle alone as well..I have mentored families who struggle with gunshots outside their apartments during the week.  I have taught kids to ride bikes in parks next to drug deals going one… with elementary kids watching.  Not everyone lives in Magnolia. 

  • supermarché d’épargne

    You can only take on the gun lobby with a concerted effort.  These are our kids people! Let them hang out yes, but no weapons… Discovery Park is a wonderful place and those of us who frequent, donate for its upkeep and just generally love the place should be concerned.

    I love the idea of supervised cleanup as punishment.  A punishment that is really an enrichment.

    • Ericsmith

      In this country personal freedom is considered more important to people than the lives of their children.  There is no “taking on” of the gun lobby with concerted effort.  They’ve already won over and over because “personal freedom” will make 1/2 of America lather with fear at being part of a social group that might make a decision limiting personal freedom for the greater good of the many.

      Hanging out at night has always been dangerous, even when it was just a carved knife.  Good kids should be smart kids and stay away from parks at night.  Communicate that.  There will always be someone with a gun there, plus drugs.  If they are getting ready for college, they already know that…they are just bored.

      Supervised cleanup is such a mild solution.  Sure, let them clean up.  But if there are “good” kids who are trashing the place, post their picture somewhere where their “good” parents’ neighbors can see them and let there be some stronger repercussion.

      I am an American, but the idea that there are better peaceful models elsewhere that can be implemented to prevent mayhem in the parks and kids with nothing else to do but hang out there at night and play shoot em up with guns….well I’d be called a foreigner to suggest such a thing, and we know how Americans feel about those people.

      • supermarché d’épargne

        How cute you presume I’m a foreigner!  I guess it’s the username – you can learn French in American schools you know – I did…

        The gun lobby is just that, a lobby.  We’re held to ransom in this country by lobbyists, and to trot out the constitution every time someone mentions gun control or positive steps towards making our streets safer is short sighted.  “Personal freedom” is eroded very quickly when a gun is pointed at you, and that would happen less if there were less guns.

        Anyway, you’re right, hanging out at night is dangerous, and don’t worry I’ve done my fair share of communicating that many times.

        I am surprised you don’t like the clean up idea – seems like a good bit of humiliation coupled with some good old fashioned community service, and the cash that service would save the city, would be right up your alley.

        • Ericsmith

          Whoops, you are right.  I guess I kind of wished you were French.  Actually my point was that if I suggested a European model were superior I would be derided by “real” Americans.  Sorry for the stereotype. 

          Your clean up idea is great but the bored kids who’d do it wouldn’t pay a great enough price, in my opinion for risking, for example, a stray bullet hitting someone else in the park.  I think trail building is more in tune with it…heavy labor.

          Curious why you think I care about saving the city money?  I want them to spend more on schools, teachers, police…all the things I vote for.

    • billybibbet

      What does the “gun lobby” have to do with the illegal use of guns by juveniles?  If someone illegally possesses or uses a gun, arrest and convict them, end of story.

      • Ericsmith

        The gun lobby ensures that guns are so easy to get that anyone can get one at a gun show, fair, Walmart, whereever with minimal if any effort.  Thats where kid’s parents get them.  That is why they are everywhere.  It also ensures that high power rifles are purchasable…things no one needs to hunt a deer ethically.  Trying to make it necessary to pass tests or get special licensing to buy a gun…that is what the gun lobby successfully fights.

        • Anon

          Exactly, it’s hard to buy sudafed because it can be used in the meth trade, it should be at least as hard to buy a gun.  Guns are used in all sorts of illegal activity.

          • billybibbet

            Interesting, are you required to complete a Form 4473 for the BATF, a “Pistol Transfer Application” for local law enforcement /WA St Dept of Licensing,  and complete an FBI background check to purchase your Sudafed?  You are for the purchase of a handgun.

            Why is everyone so quick to blame an inanimate object, rather than the poor parenting skills and criminal behavior of these kids?   Do you actually believe some new guns laws are going to somehow, suddenly make these kids become “good”?
            Keep dreaming…

            Everyone wants a “quick fix” from a new law, that makes for a good news clips and everyone feels good about themselves, but does nothing for the underlying problems in society.

          • Ericsmith

            Not everyone buys from licensed dealers, in fact most guns are not procured in these ways.  At gun shows guns are purchased from private parties with a wink and no checks at all.  Many legit gun dealers are happy to skirt the paperwork laws…I know this for a fact.  Most guns in the country are bought illegally.  You have got to be kidding.  If you think there is nothing wrong with alcohol and nothing wrong with cars do you think that might as well let kids (anyone) drink themselves unconscious and go out and drive?  Or do you think there might be some intelligence to making it illegal to drive drunk?  Some objects, some substances kill people when they are readily available, and illegally procured guns are everywhere, Billy.  I hope one of your kids isn’t taking a peacefull walk next to a drive by between  two idiots using them.  Social ills have always been part of societies, and we struggle with them.  But your children can’t stay home 24/7.    Look at the actual reality of the world around you and you will see child after child caught in crossfires between teens (or medical students) with guns they can buy or steal any day of the week here in Seattle.  I am absolutely stunned at your not recognizing this.

          • billybibbet

            If you “know for a fact”  gun dealers that are skirting the law, why are you not reporting them to local police and the ATF so they can conduct a sting operation on them?  And if you have not reported them, then shame on you for contributing to the problem by looking the other way!

          • Ericsmith

            Yes, I have witnessed it here, in Arizona (especially), in California.  Shame on me.  And you are extremely naive if you think there is going to be a sting operation over it.  Half of America is glad it is happening.  Enough already…if you aren’t convinced that there are too many unregistered guns in the hands of people who shouldn’t have them, and if the others reading these postings think its my sole job to try and convince you, so be it.  I read on these postings about people who are “sick” about the bad schools, “sick” about one issue or another…but in the end its just talk.  What is it people are actually willing to do to improve things?  I do everything in my power to create a better society for the people around me.  I can live with myself.

        • wisedawg

          That is because it is our constitutional right to have guns.  If you don’t like it, change the constitution.  That is your right to try.

        • kittycat

           What is a “high power rifle”?

          • billybibbet

            Exactly Kittycat…I guess it is more “ethical” to hunt with a “low powered” rifle that only wounds a deer, and leaves them suffering a long and painful death or maimed for life, in Ericsmith’s world…. :(

          • Ericsmith

            You know your guns so don’t play naive.  A rifle allows the prey to be hunted, kittycat.  Semi automatic or automatic weapons used in warfare take the ability out of hunting and just make it obliteration.  They then find their way on the streets and take out families.   I am no fan of hunting but I understand AND SUPPORT THE RIGHT TO DO IT.  I believe the animal should have a chance to escape.  I suppose a grenade would elimate the long and painful death, too, Billy.  By the way I also saw Kalishnikovs sold without permits.  Would you care to explain what you actually do know about the difference in low powered and high powered rifles to this woman?  I know you run a liquor store in Wallingford and are probably not ignorant on matters of guns.  I try not to make it personal, Billy.  If you like your guns, have your guns.  Unregistered guns in the hands of kids or the mentally ill are the problem and you know very well the police are too busy to fuss with that kind of thing.

          • billybibbet

            Agreed, no personal snipes, and for that I apologize.  I support hunting as well, but do not chose to partake…too much “bambi syndrome” for me.  :)  (I did go bird hunting in college, but that was some time ago)  The point you miss with your “give the animal a chance to escape” is exactly why most hunters use a scoped, bolt action rifle.  They want a clean, quick death of the animal, with little chance of escaping mained or wounded and in pain…that would be a horrible thing.  Escaping, usually means wounded.

            Bow hunting is probably more “fair” to some, as it requires great skill of the hunter, and the broadhead arrows are not nearly as lethal…but to me, this is why I (personally) feel bow hunting is much more inhumane than hunting with a rifle…Arrows cannot kill quickly, so it is a slow, agonizing death for a deer after being hit with an arrow, as it runs for hundreds of yards or even miles until it eventually bleeds out and dies.  If you lose the blood trail, and miss vitals with your shot, the animal could go on suffering for days or weeks with the arrow in them.

            Most semi-automatic rifles are not in a sufficiently high enough caliber to be used for hunting in WA State (such as the popular AR-15). And even when in a legally approved caliberl, one must restrict the magazine to 5 rounds or less. Fully automatic weapons have been illegal in WA State for decades.  Only police and military may possess them.

            Again, I take issue with all of these crimes you have witnessed of illegal gun transactions (only because you keep bringing this up).  The police are not too busy to stop such things…that is their job and the ones I know relish the opportunity to turn in a bad guy, even a gun dealer.  Your making broad assumptions on law enforcement and most notably ignoring to report, can actually contribute to our crime problems.  Please call the Seattle ATF field office and report these crimes, it’s important. (thanks!)
            (206) 389-5800

          • Ericsmith

            Thank you so much for such an articulate reply, Billy, and a kind and informative one too.  Half the reason I post on these things is to try to have an intelligent conversation on issues of interest to our community.  I really have learned enough about hunting from your post to see things in a new way.  It is a gift to be able to educate as well as express your opinion. 
            All those illegal gun purchases that (obviously) haunt me, since I do seem to keep bringing them up…they were at, of all things, SWAP meets.  How could I turn in those people?  I mean rocket launchers right next to the tube socks (no kidding…in Arizona). And in Tukwila when I was mentoring down there…if I had even looked like I was going for a phone I would have been in danger, never mind the kids I was trying to help. 
            Anyway, you know your laws and you are right on the responsibility to report whenever possible.

            Thanks again.

          • kittycat

            I still don’t know the difference between a high power and low power rifle. Please someone explain the difference to me, using some science and facts of course.

          • billybibbet

            It actually is a misnomer.  This term does not have a true definition, and I imagine if you google it, you will only hear about ”high power rifle” as a classification in rifle competition (a tradition that goes back to the early 1900′s).

            Understand that rifles come in many different calibers, which I suppose could be catagorized as “power”, but there is no real dividing line between “high power” and “low power”.  I suppose a small 22 caliber rimfire rifle,  which is commonly used to shoot at a tin can or paper target might be consider “low power”.    I think Ericsmith was attempting to use the term “high power rifle” to denote the use of a high capacity feeding device or magazine, which allows the gun to be capable of firing 20, 30 or even 100 rounds before reloading.   But that has nothing to do with the true ballistic capability of the rifle in question….even a 22 can have a high capacity magazine…heck even a Nerf foam dart gun can have a high capacity magazine. 

            I believe Ericsmith might have been trying to articulate “fire power” or the overall effectiveness of the rifle due to the volume of fire the rifle could be capable of.

              In a real sense, ALL centerfire rifles could be considered “high power” (other than pistol caliber or 22 caliber rifles) as even the lowest powered centerfire rifle like has at least double the velocity and muzzle energy of any common handgun.  Some rifles can have three to four times as much. 

             One valid way to seperate “high power” from “low power” is to look up the WA State Dept of Wildlife hunting regulations on what calibers are acceptable for deer hunting.  For humane reasons, they require you to use a “effective” meaning powerful cartridge or caliber to ensure a clean, quick and humane kill.  Obviously even the smallest calibers can be lethal, but if you shot a deer with a.22, unless you hit them in just the right spot, it could take hours, days or weeks for them to die from the wound.  Or they could live out their useful life maimed and in pain and agony.  For that reason, lower limits on caliber are prescribed in state hunting regulations.

          • billybibbet

            Exactly Kittycat…I guess it is more “ethical” to hunt with a “low powered” rifle that only wounds a deer, and leaves them suffering a long and painful death or maimed for life, in Ericsmith’s world…. :(

  • Oprah

    Thanks, working moms!

    • Annoyed

      What about working dads?

  • Seasuzanne

    It’s not just Discovery Park. The times my family has gone to Ella Bailey after dark, we’ve had to leave early because of 20-some teens, obviously high, loudly swearing and acting stupid. What is “cute” for them, shouting out their f-bomb-laced flirtatious, made the park completely unwelcome to my family.

    And Green Lake park last Saturday? We left before even dark, because a gang of black-and-white, all-males were drinking – holding and swigging Javk Daniels in broad daylight – and shouting swears. My telling them to knock it off just incensed them. So much for a nice afternoon of swimming at a PUBLIC beach. It’s all become hoodlum territory now.

    And don’t blame working parents. This was a weekend, Saturday afternoon, where all parents were doubtless working in the yard while their soon-to-be-crime-statistics

    • Seasuzanne

      …drink, curse, get pregnant and, eventually, shoot each other.

      Good for you who want to patrol the parks after dark, but I’m not taking the risk. I’ll stay home, safe.

      • Cookoo

        “…drink, curse, get pregnant and, eventually, shoot each other.”

        And send the bill to tax payers.

  • Oprah

    Sorry, Seasuzanne. But we didn’t have the widespread phenomena of gun-happy teens before moms starting dumping 3-month old kids in daycare, just so they could report to their grey cubicles. Although political correctness prevents the media from touching that angle, any objective child psychologist will tell you that early separation destroys the capacity for empathy. Working moms have destroyed this country. Thanks, Gloria Steinem!

    • Gail

      You are a complete idiot.   

      • Oprah

        Gail and Annoyed:

         

        The name-calling offers valuable insight into your
        character, but it doesn’t change the results of clinical research conducted by
        developmental psychologists.

         

        Maybe a quick reading of McDonald-Messinger, UCLA/Allan Schore, and Chechik, Meilijson, & Ruppin would help you two get
        beyond one syllable words.

          

        • Ericsmith

          Had a free 30 minutes and read the McDonald-Messinger.  To everyone else who didn’t have the time:  Absolutely nothing to support what this person is saying in this study.  Where on earth did you get that conclusion from their findings?  What exactly is so horrifying to you about my phrase that good mothers come in many forms? 

          • Ericsmith

            Clarificiation of my response above:  “There is absolutely nothing to support any correlation whatsoever between what the authors of McDonald-Messinger are postulating and the conclusions Oprah made from the readings. Thus I didn’t bother to read the others, but are interested in anyone else does… 

    • annoyed

      But its ok for dads to work?  You are a foolish troll.

    • Seasuzanne

      Yeah, look what that kind of unempathc, gun-toting kid that working (and single) mom Ann Dunham made: Our current president. Horrors. Other working women destroying their countries by slaving away in cubicles? German Chancellor Angela Merkel. U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton. Brazilian President Dilma Rousseff. Sonia Gandhi, president of the Indian National Congress Party; Cristina Fernandez, president of Argentina; Julia Gillard, prime minister of Australia; Yingluck Shinawatra, prime minister of Thailand; Ellen Johnson-Sirleaf, president of Liberia; and Laura Chinchilla, president of Costa Rica…

    • Ericsmith

      Yes we did.  I’m sure your referenced psychological studies are sound and prejudiced at he same time….like studies that show breastfeeding for 5 years is ideal (probably is), and demonizing those who don’t.  When my kids were small half of the things I did were panned by “elitist pediatric journals” and because I had lived abroad I already knew they were one-sided and wrong.

       Everyone knows an engaged mother with their own infant is ideal.  Bored moms are better moms if they work and have help with their children…plugging them in front of a DVD hardly qualifies as good parenting.    Educated moms are needed by the world to solve problems and can easily integrate their involvement with the world as an example for their children (I especially think of Madeleine Albright here, whose children thanked her for her example).  What you are not addressing is the main reasons most mothers work.  They have to.  Poverty dictates it and lack of jobs with enough pay for one spouse (either) dictates it.   Insecurity in the jobs people have in the marketplace dictate it.   I also hope you aren’t coming from some Christian home-school place (sorry Christians, you are great, etc etc., but the whole separate your kids from the rest of the world’s take on life, teaching only your own stories is right out of the “Book of Mormon.”)

      Anyway, hoodlums hanging in parks have been forever.  Nobody strolled the woods in the MIddle Ages either.  I give up on talking about the widespread availability of illegally procured guns in the community but just think about this Oprah…your post is as prejudiced as any you are criticizing.  Good mothers come in all forms and your reference to Gloria Steinem makes me suspect you are a man anyway posting this.

      • Oprah

        I think I see what’s going on here. You’re simply not familiar with the subject matter. Have you read the clinical studies or not? It’s fine to express an opinion, but if you’re going to question research, it’s always best to cite other studies. Your uninformed rambling could just as easily be found in Parents magazine. “Good mothers come in all forms” – who sold you that bridge?

        • Ericsmith

          You are certainly extremely angry.  Trust me, no one is going to run and read the studies with the way you present yourself.  Would you run out and read studies on esoteric Hindu art if I told you they conclusively show some opinion of yours is totally wrong?  Would you like people to understand this wonderful knowledge you possess?  Then teach it…explain the content of the studies in a noncondescending way and you might get someone to listen. Educating people accomplishes so much more than disdain that in the end accomplishes neither of your goals…convincing people you are right and helping raise children more effectively.  Otherwise, though you may feel satisfied with yourself, the end result is that you turn off all your audience.

          • Oprah

            Do you always launch personal attacks when you disagree with someone’s ideas or when you have no solid argument? No wonder we can’t have productive discourse on the issues in this country. You are the problem.

            And before you accuse people of being angry, at least try to erase your hate speach toward Christians. And home schoolers. And men.

            Btw, still not convinced you’ve done the reading. Or comprehended it.

          • Ericsmith

            By my definition I didn’t launch a personal attack.  Didn’t call you a troll for example.  I don’t hate Christians, I hate close-mindedness. While teaching at UW I saw many homeschooled Christian students afraid to hear about the rest of the world or open themselves to new ideas because they were so programmed by their limited schooling.  When people have asked me over the years if it was a good idea to send their kids to Christian private schools because they had professional goals for their kids I recommended against it.  I have the credentials; both my kids are MDs, so I know an inferior education when I see it.  Home schooling focussed on nondenominational world class teaching may well be the desperation choice of those who face terrible public schools, but it is the rare home-schooling parent who has the breadth of education and social exposure to provide a really nutritive learning environment for their kids.
            Lastly, I read the piece and there is no correlation with what they wrote and your conclusions.  Do you always come out in the attack when someone disagrees with you? You just twisted it to say what you want…something I said in my very first posting to you was commonly done.  Nothing in your presentation made me believe that reading further would provide any additional benefit to me, given your first premise was faulty.  Don’t hate men.  Am a man.  Love women though.

          • Oprah

            Talking
            about neurodevelopment these days is a lot like talking about global warming. The
            science is settled, but powerful political forces often prevent action. Scientists
            are done debating global warming, but taking on the powerful energy lobby is a major
            hurdle to change. Similarly, the connection between consistently devoted
            parental care and prefrontal cortex development that enables empathy is
            established and accepted. But try suggesting in a public forum that we can do
            better by our kids, and the powerful feminist lobby will make sure you are
            personally attacked as a bigoted Christian wacko.

             

            You
            took a page right out of their playbook, Ericsmith. Why do you suppose that is?

             

            If
            you have insightful ideas about developmental psychology, especially how the
            structure of our economy and culture has helped create a whole generation with
            diminished capacity for empathy, let’s hear them! Honestly, I’d be all ears.

             

            But
            attacking me personally and questioning research without citation gets us
            nowhere.

             

            So,
            ideas?

             

            (I will post the core text of Schore / UCLA in a
            separate post.)

          • Oprah

            Schore
            / UCLA:

            The maturation of corticolimbic systems that neurobiologically mediate
            essential affective and social regulatory functions is experience dependent.
            During the first and second years of life, the infant’s affective experiences,
            especially those embedded in the relationship with the primary caregiver,
            elicit patterns of psychobiological alterations that influence the activity of
            subcortically produced trophic bioamines, peptides, and steroids that regulate
            the critical period growth and organization of the developing neocortex.
            Interactive attachment experiences of psychobiological attunemcnt, stressful
            misattunement, and stress-regulating repair and reattunement that maximize
            positive and minimize negative affect are imprinted into the orbitofrontal
            cortex — the hierarchical apex of the limbic system that
            is expanded in the early developing right hemisphere. During the critical
            period of maturation of this system, prolonged episodes of intense and
            unregulated interactive stress are manifest in disorganizing experiences of
            heightened negative affect and altered levels of stress hormones, and this
            chaotic biochemical alteration of the internal environment triggers an
            extensive apoptotic panellation of corticolimbic circuitries. In this manner
            less than optimal affect-regulating experiences with the primary caregiver are
            imprinted into the circuits of this frontolimbic system that is instrumental to
            attachment functions, thereby producing orbitofrontal organizations that
            neurobiologically express different patterns of insecure attachments. Such
            pathomorphogenetic outcomes result in structurally defective systems that,
            under stress, inefficiently regulate subcortical mechanisms that mediate the
            physiological processes that underlie emotion. The functional impairments of
            the cortical-subcortical circuitries of this prefrontal system are implicated
            in an enduring vulnerability to and the pathophysiology of various later
            forming psychiatric disorders.

          • Ericsmith

            Ok, Oprah, if you will play fair (take me as an interested debator of your issues rather than the enemy who is the AntiChrist..and agree to take religion out of the discussion, otherwise your bias would completely negate the science of the article, which isn’t Christian at all) I will take the time to respond.

            I am not not a neuroscientist, but that doesn’t mean the results of neuroscience are unimpeachble.  I look at what societies have done successfully and learn from that.    I come from a more sociological background and see global models where it has indeed “taken a village” to successfully raise a child.  A child who is loved by an extended family develops far better than one cooped up in a Western apartment in front of a TV with one or even two loving parents.  All of history has shown that to be true because that is how successful societies operate, so forgive me the lack for footnotes.  Life isn’t black and white, Oprah.  When a child is surrounded by loving adults he or she becomes emphathetic..even if its two gay adults, a loving group home, or a tribe in the AMazon.  All your studies are showing is that there should be direct loving contact for the child to develop the appropriate empathetic responses.  If you violently disagree with this, point out which exact lines disprove this, because I can’t spend the time pouring over scientific papers written in jargon for other scientists…I represent your best shot at an interested audience.

          • Oprah

            “Less than optimal affect-regulating
            experiences with the primary
            caregiver … result in structurally defective systems.”

            It’s all right there, Ericsmith.

            If you are going to question this, question it with science please. 

            Personal observation and bumper sticker bromides such as “It takes a village” simply don’t cut it. 

          • Ericsmith

            Leaving for business out of town, so forgive abrupt reply.  The original scientists who proved global warming never figured out how to talk to the public about it, so years passed and no one listened. They admit that about themselves. The science never mattered because they couldn’t figure out how to communicate it.  No one will listen to you until you figure out how to talk to people about your intense beliefs, and I don’t mean “dumb down”, I mean communicate. A primary caregiver can be many things.  Its like you are reading from a play book and cannot talk on your own.  If all you want to do is talk to yourself, you are succeeding.  Thanks for the opportunity to learn what the world looks like from your eyes.

          • Oprah

            No one will listen to me until
            I learn how to talk to people? Why do you keep attacking me when I keep asking
            you for original ideas? Do you have any? Agree with it or not, I
            introduced an idea here that is rarely seen and seldom discussed. Can you
            do the same? Can you bring to this conversation of troubled, well-armed youth
            an insight that isn’t on anyone’s radar yet? Do you have any ORIGINAL ideas? 

        • Ericsmith

          see below.  Read one of the studies.  No longer have confidence in your objectivity.

      • billybibbet

        Did you read Danny Westneat’s editorial in the Seattle Times last week?  He gave countless examples of our poor enforcement and lack of persecution of gun crimes.  We don’t lack the laws or tools, we seem to have a problem with both our county and federal prosecutors to enforce the laws and ensure the proper penalties are served.  Danny seems to conclude we have the laws, we just don’t have the backbone or will to enforce our existing laws as vigorously as we should.  Shame on us for not speaking out to our county and federal officials:

        http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/dannywestneat/2018762877_danny25.html

        In other words, the arrests are made by the police, but little time is served by the criminal actors.

        • Ericsmith

          His articles are always spot on.  So here is the dilemma…for whatever reasons the system is busted.  Therefore it is our responsible as caring adults to step up and do our part to help in society the way we can.  I have absolutely no faith in my ability to change the justice system or to throw myself on that sword.  But I know that if the flow of illegal guns were less than the busted system would be less relevant.  I think all gun owners should be inventive and police this issue themselves.  Relying on gun laws (new or old) or even the police (who obviously become discouraged at arrests that are thrown out)…its kind of passing the buck.  IF you are an NRA person, what would be the chances of passing a resolution for gun owners to figure out a way to help this problem proactively?  Most likely zero (correct me if I am wrong).  I know, Iknow, “my little world”, but really, we are just observing something akin to the free flow of heroin.  Saying that light sentences for gun users is the problem won’t comfort the mom whose baby just got shot  as collateral damage.  Is it all just a shrugging of the arms over the issue?  Isn’t it the responsibility of drug companies to make their drugs basically safe?  What can gun owners do to make the streets safer since guns ARE a problem as we all, including Danny, agree.

          • billybibbet

            Unfortunately we are simply debating ourselves here…;)  But the problem I see between our differing views, is you view gun owners as responsible for their firearms being stolen and misused.  I don’t.  That is akin to blaming a car owner when their car is stolen and someone is run down with it.  Do you compell all legal users of over the counter and prescription drugs to be responsible for the illegal use of these same drugs by others?  You are making a connection that gun owners are not in agreement with.

            My own firearms are locked in a gun safe…which is inside my locked and alarmed home.   To what extent does my responsibility go to preventing misuse of my firearms.  If they are taken, that is crime…plain and simple.  And if they are used to assault or kill someone, that too is a crime.  I guess I am at a loss as to what more you expect of me? Especially when you have admitted to ignoring criminal acts with guns and refuse to report them to police when you witness them, because you believe the police will do nothing to stop them.   I believe that is contributing more to the problem than anything I have done.  I most certainly would report a crime I witness…in fact I have on many occasions.

            Cut to the chase, what exactly are you expecting of gun owners to “proactively” do to solve the issues you see?

          • Ericsmith

            Can’t post any more, Billy.  Leaving for work and other responsibilities.  Please don’t take this as my ducking out of our conversation.  I have enjoyed our debates.

          • billybibbet

            No problem, I think this is talked out enough…I’m done as well….we can pick it up another time…

  • billybibbet

    Ericsmith,
    don’t worry abou the rocket launchers you saw sold at a swap meet in AZ.  I have seen those myself and questioned it with a buddy at SPD bomb squad.  They are perfetly legal, because they are single use.  In other words the ones you saw were previously expended by the US military…they are then surplused as scrap, as they are no can be used.  People buy them as a collectible or to display…that is all they are useful for.

  • parent of teenagers

    There are a few details that should be corrected.The male victim did not know any of the suspects and the altercation referenced would be that the suspects had intended to rob him first. All three of the suspects had weapons and opened fire when one of the victims tried to run. Why the report doesn’t menetion the second male victim is unclear. Perhaps being shot and having a bullit lodged in your body you might come off as  “uncooperative”. It’s sad that so much information is snatched up by the media without checking out the facts first.